0023
        1   12th January, 1999
        2
        3   The Honourable               Court of Queen's Bench
        4   Mr. Justice McMahon          of Alberta
        5
        6   A. D. Hunter, Esq., Q.C.)    For the Applicants
        7   L. A. Taylor, Ms.       )
        8   R. C. Maybank, Esq.  )       For the Respondent
        9   C. L. Enns, Ms.      )
       10   T. Miner, CSR(A)             Official Court Reporter
       11   ----------------------------------------------------------------
       12   THE COURT:              Mr. Maybank, are you ready to
       13       continue with Dr. Macleod?
       14   MR. MAYBANK:            Yes, I am, sir.
       15   THE COURT:              Good morning, Dr. Macleod.  You
       16       understand you're still under oath?
       17   A   I do.
       18   RODERICK CHARLES Macleod, sworn, examined by Mr. Maybank:
       19   Q   Dr. Macleod, at the close of proceedings yesterday, we
       20       had just finished the first section of your report on
       21       Introduction.  The next section of your report is
       22       headed The English Origins.  Are there any points of
       23       particular interest or relevance that you would like
       24       to bring forward to the court?
       25   A   Briefly, the office of justice of the peace is very
       26       old.  It's so old that historians and antiquarians
       27       spend a lot of time arguing about exactly when it did
0024
        1       begin, some seeing its origins back as far as
        2       Anglo-Saxon times, but it really takes its --
        3       something like its present form in the 14th century,
        4       when the Statute of Winchester, 1361, sets out some of
        5       the powers and duties of the justice of the peace.
        6            From that point, the office gradually increases
        7       in the powers and responsibilities of the office of
        8       justice of the peace till about the middle of the 18th
        9       century, and then it begins a gradual decline in
       10       England until around the end of the 19th century; and
       11       then, interestingly enough, in the 20th century, the
       12       office recovers some of the former powers.
       13   Q   Are you speaking about in England or in Canada?
       14   A   I'm speaking about in England.
       15   Q   And you used a word that I was unfamiliar with and had
       16       to look up, the word "protean"?
       17   A   Yes.
       18   Q   Could you explain that to the court, please?
       19   A   Yes, it means changeable, able to change its shape.
       20       It's from the Greek God Proteus, who was apparently
       21       able to change his shape.
       22   Q   And why did you use that adjective?
       23   A   Well, because the office of justice of the peace has
       24       fulfilled so many different functions in England over
       25       the years.  It was a judicial office with many
       26       different powers and responsibilities associated with
       27       it at various times.
0025
        1            It was also an administrative office.  Justices
        2       of the peace ran local government in England for much
        3       of the history of that country.  They did things like
        4       setting weights and measures and licencing ale houses
        5       and all these various local government
        6       responsibilities.  It was, in other words, a sort of
        7       an all-purpose institution that governments could use
        8       as necessity required.
        9   Q   And it's existed a very long time?
       10   A   A very long time, at least -- well, seven or eight
       11       hundred years.
       12   Q   In the next section of your report, you review the
       13       justices of the peace and police magistrates in
       14       Canada, 1749 to 1906.  Can you very briefly review
       15       that section of your report?
       16   A   Certainly.  The justice of the peace gets transferred
       17       across the Atlantic Ocean to what eventually becomes
       18       Canada in the middle of the 18th century; in other
       19       words, just at that point when it's about at its time
       20       of maximum power and responsibility in England; and
       21       the English make quite a determined effort to
       22       transplant the institution wholesale to their colonies
       23       in North America.
       24            In other words, they attempt to use justices of
       25       the peace for all the sorts of things that they're
       26       used in England; that is to say, as -- as the chief
       27       judicial officers in the lower courts to try minor
0026
        1       cases of all sorts, and likewise to use them for
        2       administrative purposes in most -- in fact, all of the
        3       British North American colonies.
        4            Before there are regular municipal institutions,
        5       it's justices of the peace who do the local
        6       administration.  Until the City of Toronto was
        7       incorporated in the early 1830s, for example, it's the
        8       local justices of the peace who run local government.
        9   Q   You also reviewed the matter of appointments and
       10       patronage in that section.  Would you like to make a
       11       comment on that?
       12   A   Yes.  In the 18th and 19th century, patronage in
       13       government appointments of all sorts was the norm.  It
       14       was taken for granted, and justices of the peace
       15       certainly fell in with that pattern.  In other words,
       16       you did not get appointed as justice of the peace
       17       unless you were a friend of the party in power at the
       18       time the appointment was made.
       19   Q   And just to go outside that section a bit, do you have
       20       any comment on that in relation to JPs in the 20th
       21       century?
       22   A   The appointments of justices of the peace in the
       23       Province of Alberta after 1905 continued, at least in
       24       form, along these lines; that is to say, the standard
       25       and universal practice when appointing a justice of
       26       the peace in Alberta, up to 1991, was to have
       27       suggested appointees run past the Member of the
0027
        1       Legislative Assembly for that area for their
        2       approval.
        3   Q   Back to the section 1749 to 1906, you described the
        4       powers of a single justice of the peace in 1867.
        5   A   Yes.
        6   Q   Could you briefly review that?
        7   A   Okay.  1867.  Right.  A justice of the peace could
        8       issue warrants, search warrants and arrest warrants.
        9       They could conduct preliminary inquiries.  They could
       10       investigate minor offences.
       11            It's worth noting that before there were
       12       organized police forces in most parts of the country,
       13       the justice of the peace also performed those
       14       functions; that is to say, they were charged with
       15       investigating reports of crimes.  They could try a
       16       wide variety of summary offences.  They could bind
       17       those accused of more serious offences over to a trial
       18       in superior courts.  They could commit accused persons
       19       to jail to await trial.  That's a single justice.
       20   Q   When you said they could try summary offences, would
       21       that be under provincial legislation or the Criminal
       22       Code?
       23   A   There was no Criminal Code in 1867.  There were a
       24       variety of criminal statutes that don't get
       25       consolidated into the Criminal Code until 1892.
       26   Q   Now, you also describe some types of local changes to
       27       the office of justice of the peace.
0028
        1   A   Yes.  The office of justice of the peace was one that
        2       differed considerably from province to province in the
        3       late 19th century.  Generally speaking, the older
        4       provinces, and particularly the Atlantic provinces,
        5       tended to follow the English model more closely than
        6       provinces farther west; that is to say, they --
        7       justices of the peace in places like Nova Scotia and
        8       New Brunswick had greater administrative
        9       responsibilities than they did elsewhere.
       10   Q   And at that time, could you describe the categories of
       11       justices of the peace?
       12   A   Well, there were no categories of justice of the
       13       peace.  You were a justice of the peace or -- or
       14       you --
       15   Q   Right.  Or the different types of persons who were
       16       justices of the peace?
       17   A   Different types of persons?  I'm not sure that I
       18       entirely understand that question.
       19   Q   Okay, that's fine.  In the late 19th century, you
       20       describe situations where -- I think you called them
       21       sweeping purges of appointments.  Can you describe
       22       those, please?
       23   A   Specifically in the North West Territories, the old
       24       North West Territories, in the last three decades of
       25       the 19th century, there were, if memory serves me, two
       26       occasions in which the government of the North West
       27       Territories issued blanket cancellations of all
0029
        1       justice of the peace commissions, and reappointed
        2       some, but not all, of the individuals and appointed
        3       new -- new ones.
        4   Q   Why would some individuals not be reappointed?
        5   A   Well, it appears, according to the -- the only study
        6       of the episodes that's taken place, which was a thesis
        7       done by an individual by the name of Reynolds, and I
        8       think he's quite right in saying that it was done
        9       partly on administrative grounds and partly on
       10       political grounds; that is to say, the government was
       11       anxious not to reappoint their political opponents to
       12       the office of justice of the peace.
       13   Q   You described a rise in the office of stipendiary
       14       magistrate in the -- during that period of time.
       15       Could you describe what was happening with the office
       16       of JP at that time?
       17   A   In the North West Territories?
       18   Q   No, in the 19th century is what you're speaking of, I
       19       believe.
       20   A   What was happening to the office of JP?  I'm not quite
       21       sure here what you're -- what you're asking me.
       22   MR. HUNTER:             My Lord, it would be helpful to
       23       me, maybe others, if you could indicate the page that
       24       you're taking the witness to in the report.
       25   THE COURT:              Yes, feel free to take him to his
       26       report, Mr. Maybank.
       27   MR. MAYBANK:            All right.
0030
        1   Q   If we look at page 10 of your report, Professor
        2       Macleod, the first full paragraph there --
        3   A   Right.
        4   Q   -- about midway down.
        5   A   Yes.  What happens in the late 19th century is that
        6       there is an increasing tendency to use stipendiary
        7       magistrates to try criminal cases, and there is a
        8       general decline in the use of justices of the peace to
        9       try criminal cases.  In other words, the stipendiary
       10       magistrates are granted increasing summary powers and
       11       get -- one of the big things that the stipendiary
       12       magistrates get in the late 19th century is the
       13       authority, with the consent of the accused, to try
       14       indictable -- most indictable offences.  There's no
       15       corresponding change in the authority of justices of
       16       the peace.
       17   Q   In the next section of your report, you deal with
       18       justices of the peace in the North West Territories.
       19   A   Right.
       20   Q   And near the top of page 12, you mention the nature of
       21       the appointments and whether they were at pleasure at
       22       the time.  Could you expand on that?
       23   A   This is one of those questions that you really can't
       24       give a blanket answer to because there was no piece of
       25       legislation in the North West Territories that
       26       governed the appointments of justices of the peace, so
       27       you have to look at the individual commissions that
0031
        1       were issued to the justices.
        2            Now, I make no claim to have looked at all or
        3       even any substantial number of those commissions.  The
        4       ones I have looked at are all at pleasure.
        5   Q   In the full paragraph on that page, you mention or
        6       describe the practice of appointing police officers as
        7       justices of the peace, and can you describe that
        8       practice and how long it lasted?
        9   A   Certainly.  This was one of the unique features of the
       10       North West Territories as far as the Canadian system
       11       of administration of justice was concerned; that is to
       12       say that once the North West Mounted Police were
       13       created in 1873, the government adopted a practice of
       14       appointing, as I mentioned yesterday, initially
       15       superintendents, and then, after a couple of years,
       16       inspectors as well to -- as ex officio justices of the
       17       peace.  This was a practice that lasted throughout the
       18       period in the North West Territories until the
       19       creation of the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan
       20       in 1905; and in fact, mounted police officers, acting
       21       as justices of the peace, tried the bulk of criminal
       22       cases in the North West Territories in that period.
       23   Q   Near the bottom of page 13, I guess that full
       24       paragraph, you're speaking about the purges that we
       25       spoke of earlier.
       26   A   Yes.
       27   Q   And patronage.  And then you look -- you review the
0032
        1       matter of whether JPs might expect to lose their jobs
        2       because of political affiliation.  Can you make a
        3       comment on that, please?
        4   A   As I mentioned earlier, it appears that people were --
        5       in these general purges of the justices of the peace
        6       that some did lose their positions on political
        7       grounds.  I discovered no indication that individual
        8       justices of the peace were fired on grounds of
        9       political affiliation.
       10   Q   And that's based on the review of the files that you
       11       conducted?
       12   A   Yes, and it's also based on Reynolds' thesis.  He did
       13       a pretty thorough analysis of the situation, and he
       14       found no such dismissals.
       15   Q   Are you suggesting that there were no other reasons
       16       that they might lose their position, by making that
       17       statement?
       18   A   Oh, certainly not.
       19   Q   And at the top of page 14, you review the fees that
       20       were paid to justices of the peace during that
       21       period.
       22   A   Yes.  The fees were very low.  Indeed, as I -- as I
       23       suggest there, the fees payable to justices of the
       24       peace weren't even sufficient to cover the costs of
       25       the justices' handbooks and copies of the statutes
       26       that they were required to -- were required to have,
       27       and there was a prolonged fight between the federal
0033
        1       and the territorial government over who should pay for
        2       these.  It would essentially be difficult -- it would
        3       be -- have been impossible for anyone to even begin to
        4       try to make a living from the fees that were paid to
        5       justices of the peace.
        6   Q   The next section of your report deals with the period
        7       in Alberta from 1905 to 1998.  You stated that the
        8       first provincial statute provided that justices of the
        9       peace were appointed at pleasure.  Can you tell us
       10       what happened with the legislation in relation to that
       11       provision?
       12   A   The -- the "at pleasure"?
       13   Q   Yes.
       14   A   It is dropped from the -- from the legislation in
       15       1908.
       16   Q   And what significance would you attach to that?
       17   A   I wouldn't attach any significance at all to that.
       18       Taken by itself, it might seem as if there was a
       19       change in the attitude, but if you look at the
       20       Interpretation Act, it makes it quite clear that all
       21       appointments, statutory appointments, are to be at
       22       pleasure unless otherwise stated.
       23   Q   Dr. Macleod, could I refer you to Volume 1 of the
       24       legislative appendix of the Respondent?
       25   A   All right.
       26   Q   And tab 3 of that appendix --
       27   A   Yes.
0034
        1   Q   -- includes the Interpretation Act from 1906.  Was
        2       it --
        3   THE COURT:              I'm sorry, I have your book of
        4       authorities, Volume 1.  That's not what I want.
        5   MR. MAYBANK:            No, there should be a legislative
        6       appendix, sir.  Do you have that?
        7            Madam Clerk, do you have a copy of that?
        8   THE COURT:              No, I don't recall seeing that;
        9       unless it's -- it's not appended to the affidavit, is
       10       it?
       11   MR. MAYBANK:            No, sir, it was a separate bound
       12       volume, similar to the books of authority.
       13   THE COURT:              Well, I have four green volumes,
       14       three authorities and your argument.
       15   MR. MAYBANK:            Perhaps, sir, somehow your working
       16       copies didn't get forwarded to you.  I apologize for
       17       that.
       18   THE COURT:              Okay, thank you.  Tab 3?
       19   MR. MAYBANK:            Yes.
       20   Q   The "at pleasure" provision in the Interpretation Act;
       21       is that Section 36 that you were referring to?
       22   A   That's correct.
       23   Q   Could you read that, please?
       24   A   Certainly.  Section 36 reads:
       25
       26          "All officers now appointed or hereafter
       27          appointed under the authority of an Act or law,
0035
        1          whether by commission or otherwise, shall remain
        2          in office during pleasure only unless otherwise
        3          authorized by law;"
        4
        5   Q   And Section 33 may also be relevant.
        6   A   Section 33 on the previous page reads:
        7
        8          "Words authorizing the appointment of any public
        9          officer or functionary or any deputy include the
       10          power of removing or suspending him,
       11          re-appointing or re-instating him or appointing
       12          another in his stead in the discretion of the
       13          authority in whom the power of appointment is
       14          vested."
       15
       16   Q   And is it your understanding that -- or what is your
       17       understanding with respect to those types of
       18       provisions in the Interpretation Act?  Were they
       19       continued?
       20   A   Yes, they were continued, I believe, until 1980.
       21   Q   And we have under tab 4 the Revised Statutes, 1955.
       22   A   Yes.
       23   Q   And --
       24   A   1955, Section 30 is very similar to the earlier
       25       Section 33.  It says:
       26
       27          "Words in an Act authorizing the appointment of a
0036
        1          public officer or functionary or a deputy shall
        2          be deemed to include the power of
        3
        4          (a) removing or suspending him,
        5          (b) reappointing or reinstating him, or
        6          (c) appointing another in his stead, in the
        7          discretion of the authority in whom the power of
        8          appointment is vested."
        9
       10       And Section 33 reads:
       11
       12          "All officers lawfully appointed, whether by
       13          commission or otherwise, shall only remain in
       14          office during pleasure unless otherwise
       15          authorized by law."
       16
       17   Q   And you mentioned 1980, under tab 6, there's the
       18       Revised Statutes, 1980, the Interpretation Act?
       19   A   Yes.  The relevant sections there are Section 19,
       20       which reads:
       21
       22          "The authority under an enactment to appoint a
       23          public officer is authority to appoint during
       24          pleasure."
       25
       26       And Section 20:
       27
0037
        1          "Words in an enactment authorizing the
        2          appointment of a person include the power of... "
        3
        4       and the relevant one is:
        5
        6          "(b)  terminating his appointment or removing or
        7          suspending him;"
        8
        9   Q   Now, Dr. Macleod, if it came to your attention that
       10       the wording in the Justice of the Peace Act changed by
       11       dropping the words "at pleasure" -- sorry.  And spoke
       12       of appointments unless sooner revoked, or finally
       13       dropped any mention of revocation in the Act itself,
       14       would you, in your opinion, attach any significance to
       15       that?
       16   MR. HUNTER:             It sounds like a question of law,
       17       but I'm happy to have him try to answer it.
       18   THE COURT:              From a historian's point of view
       19       I'll accept that.
       20   MR. MAYBANK:            Sure.
       21   A   It would seem to me, from a reading of those words,
       22       that -- that they would tend to make the dropping of
       23       the "at pleasure" phrase from the Justice of the Peace
       24       Act irrelevant.
       25   Q   Now, you mention at the top of page 15 that during the
       26       appointment process the police might be involved.
       27       Could you describe that for us?
0038
        1   A   That was very often the case, and I -- I looked at
        2       numerous justice of the peace files in the provincial
        3       archives for various places in the province and -- and
        4       various times from the 1920s through the 1970s, and in
        5       a great many of them, the police, usually the R.C.M.P.
        6       but often the town police, would be the ones who wrote
        7       to the Attorney General's department, informing them
        8       of the need for a justice of the peace and often
        9       recommending individuals for appointment.  Sometimes
       10       those recommendations were accepted; sometimes they
       11       weren't.
       12   Q   In the next paragraph on page 15, you mention the
       13       elimination of the requirement for three years'
       14       experience at the bar for magistrates.  I believe
       15       there was a correction to a date brought to your
       16       attention.
       17   A   Yes, I was in error in identifying 1922 as the date.
       18       It should be 1909.  I note that the Kirby Report makes
       19       the same error on page 4, I believe it is, and I may
       20       have taken it from that.
       21   Q   And what was the purpose of eliminating that
       22       requirement of the three years' experience?
       23   A   What the Government of Alberta began to do in the
       24       early part of the century, as an alternative to having
       25       two justices of the peace sit together to try cases,
       26       as was the practice in many other parts of Canada, the
       27       Alberta government began appointing these unpaid
0039
        1       police magistrates, who had the power of two justices,
        2       in remote areas to -- to sit trials and perform the
        3       other functions, issuing warrants and processing and
        4       so on.
        5   THE COURT:              Mr. Hunter?
        6   MR. HUNTER:             My Lord, when my learned friend
        7       asks about purpose, I find that a bit awkward.  All a
        8       historian can say is what he sees, and if you're
        9       intending to lead evidence for legislative purpose, I
       10       don't think this is the way to do it.
       11   THE COURT:              Well, I take it you're seeking his
       12       opinion from his reading as to what he deduces the
       13       purpose may have been.
       14   MR. MAYBANK:            Exactly, sir.  I wasn't asking the
       15       legislative intent, but from -- certainly from your
       16       reading of the files.
       17   THE COURT:              I'll accept that it's his opinion
       18       as to what the intent may have been.
       19   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Now, these R.C.M.P. appointments
       20       that you described, did they continue actively after
       21       the Second World War?
       22   A   Which R.C.M.P. --
       23   Q   You were mentioning that R.C.M.P. officers were
       24       appointed as justices of the peace at one point.
       25   A   R.C.M.P. senior officers, inspectors and
       26       superintendents, continued to be appointed in the
       27       Province of Alberta and in Saskatchewan for the whole
0040
        1       period up to 1989.  They don't appear, from the 1950s
        2       onward, to have exercised those functions; but after
        3       the Second World War, you start to get the appointment
        4       of another kind of police justice of the peace.  Is
        5       this what you're referring to?  Is this what you're
        6       asking me about?
        7   Q   That's fine.  I was interested in what you just said.
        8   A   Right.
        9   Q   You describe on page 16, in the second paragraph, the
       10       creation of new categories of justices of the peace,
       11       staff justices.  Could you expand on that?
       12   A   Yeah.  After the Second World War, the government
       13       began appointing staff justices of the peace, who were
       14       clerks, court clerks, with restricted powers; that is
       15       to say, the letters of appointment that went out to
       16       them made it clear that they could perform limited
       17       functions.  They were specifically excluded from
       18       trying cases.
       19   Q   On page 17, the first paragraph, you stated that by
       20       the 1950s, the
       21
       22         "... higher volumes of cases were creating
       23          pressures for a more differentiated and
       24          specialized system of inferior courts."
       25
       26          Could you describe the developments that took place
       27       in that regard?
0041
        1   MR. HUNTER:             What paragraph are you reading
        2       from?
        3   A   The first full --
        4   MR. MAYBANK:            The first one.
        5   A   -- full paragraph.
        6   MR. HUNTER:             Thank you.
        7   A   From the 1950s onward, there's a huge increase in the
        8       business of the courts.  For one thing, the population
        9       of the province is growing very, very rapidly.  It
       10       doubles over a period from about 1950 to 1970, and the
       11       a number of cases coming before the courts increases
       12       even more rapidly.
       13            The result is that the government does a number
       14       of things as far as justices of the peace are
       15       concerned.  One of the things they do to streamline
       16       the operations of the courts and expedite the business
       17       of the courts is to start appointing staff justices of
       18       the peace to handle some of these functions.
       19            They also begin appointing these police justices
       20       to -- specifically for traffic tickets, and their
       21       duties are limited to those.  And, of course, the big
       22       change comes in 1971, with the move to replace the
       23       magistrates with Provincial Court judges.
       24   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        And you have a comment on -- or
       25       perhaps I could do it this way.  Could I refer you to
       26       the Hawrelechko affidavit, at tab M, which is the
       27       Irving Report.
0042
        1   A   Thank you.  Tab M?
        2   Q   'M', at page 42.  And the third paragraph down reads:
        3
        4          "In recent years, in Alberta particularly, the
        5          judicial functions of justices of the peace have
        6          been enlarged greatly.  By virtue of the
        7          Provincial Court Judges Amendment Act, justices
        8          of the peace have been granted all the powers
        9          with respect to judicial interim release as are
       10          exercisable by Provincial Court Judges.  They
       11          also have the power to receive and swear
       12          informations, issue process, grant search
       13          warrants, receive pleas with respect to certain
       14          provincial offences, impose fines or time in gaol
       15          for default of payment of fine, grant or withhold
       16          time for payment of a fine, or extensions of time
       17          for payment of a fine."
       18
       19       Do you agree with that statement?
       20   A   No, I do not.  I think that those are all functions
       21       that justices of the peace had performed in Alberta
       22       for many years prior to the period that the Irving
       23       Report is referring to, which I assume is the -- since
       24       it was written in 1985.  He says "in recent years".  I
       25       suspect what he means is the 1970s and 1980s.
       26   MR. HUNTER:             My Lord, can my friend help me as
       27       to where this report is referred to in Exhibit 2?
0043
        1   MR. MAYBANK:            Sir, the specific report isn't,
        2       but --
        3   MR. HUNTER:             Thank you.
        4   MR. MAYBANK:            But Dr. Macleod is certainly
        5       giving evidence with respect to the role of the
        6       magistrates and justices of the peace and their --
        7   MR. HUNTER:             I'm not objecting.
        8   MR. MAYBANK:            And their jurisdiction.
        9   MR. HUNTER:             I wasn't objecting.  I was just
       10       asking where it was.
       11   THE COURT:              I take it that Dr. Macleod has
       12       reviewed the Irving Report.
       13   MR. MAYBANK:            Yes.
       14   A   I have.
       15   THE COURT:              All right.
       16   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        You mentioned the change of
       17       magistrates to Provincial Court judges.  Did that
       18       relate to any changes in the role of justices of the
       19       peace, or could you describe that change in more
       20       detail?
       21   A   Yeah, the move to Provincial Court judges meant that
       22        -- one of the things that resulted from that was that
       23       the provincial government stopped appointing justices
       24       of the peace with the power to try cases altogether in
       25       1971.  All the letters of appointment that go out
       26       after that time specifically exclude the power to try
       27       cases.  So in other words, you have a period of 20
0044
        1       years in Alberta, from 1971 till 1991, when justices
        2       of the peace no longer try cases.
        3   Q   And --
        4   THE COURT:              Where is the statutory authority
        5       for that restriction?
        6   A   There is no statutory authority.  In fact, as far as I
        7       can tell, the commissions, the justice of the peace
        8       commissions, that are -- that go out at this time have
        9       no -- they are identical to the ones that go out
       10       earlier.  What differs is the letter that goes out
       11       with the commission, saying you're allowed to do these
       12       duties, and you're not permitted to do -- to do
       13       others.
       14   THE COURT:              But you have found no statutory
       15       authority for that restriction.
       16   A   Certainly not.
       17   THE COURT:              That some civil servants put in a
       18       letter.
       19   A   Exactly.
       20   THE COURT:              Thank you.
       21   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        If the jurisdiction over sitting
       22       trials was basically taken away from JPs, what
       23       happened with respect to the jurisdiction of the
       24       magistrates who had become Provincial Court judges
       25       then, and their trial work?
       26   A   Well, it was increased.  By 1973, if I recall the
       27       figure, Provincial Court judges were trying something
0045
        1       like 93 percent of the -- of all criminal cases.
        2   Q   You mentioned the creation of the category of justices
        3       of the peace called hearing officers in 1978.  How did
        4       that come about?
        5   A   That I see as a continuation of the process of
        6       creating specialized kinds of justices of the peace to
        7       help expedite the increasingly crowded courts in
        8       Alberta; in other words, to take some of the pressure
        9       off Provincial Court judges.
       10   Q   And what was the nature of the duties that they took
       11       on?
       12   A   Well, they did two things:  Primarily they heard bail
       13       applications; and the -- the other primary duty was to
       14       deal with first appearances in traffic, municipal
       15       by-law cases, and I believe fish and wildlife was also
       16       included.
       17   Q   And you mention the creation of an office of justice
       18       of the peace to hear trials in 1991?
       19   A   Yes.  In 1991, the province creates the office of
       20       sitting justice of the peace to staff the traffic
       21       courts in Calgary and Edmonton.  The sitting justices
       22       were required to have legal training and five years'
       23       experience, I believe, at the bar.
       24   Q   And what was the nature of their jurisdiction in terms
       25       of the trials they could sit?
       26   A   Their trial jurisdiction was confined to traffic and
       27       some other minor offences.  Criminal jurisdiction was
0046
        1       specifically excluded from the -- for the sitting
        2       officers.  Or the sitting justices of the peace,
        3       pardon me.
        4   Q   So was their jurisdiction broader or narrower than the
        5       JPs who could sit trials prior to '71?
        6   A   It looks to me like it's narrower, in the sense that
        7       they can no longer -- they can no longer deal with
        8       criminal matters.
        9   Q   At the bottom of page 17, you deal with the payments
       10       to justices of the peace.  Could you review that very
       11       quickly, please?
       12   A   Yes.  If you go back to the beginning of the province
       13       in 1905, fees, for example, for the taking of
       14       information or issuing a warrant, payable to a
       15       justice, were 50 cents in each case.  By the
       16       mid-1960s, the fee for taking an information had risen
       17       all the way up to a dollar, and the fee for warrants
       18       was 50 cents.
       19   Q   And what about the payment of other categories of
       20       justices of the peace?  You were describing, I take
       21       it, the fee justice of the peace in the entitlement?
       22   A   That's correct.  Some fees were specified by the
       23       Criminal Code, and in those cases, salaried employees
       24       such as police officers or staff justices, letters of
       25       appointment required them to return any fees that they
       26       received to the Attorney General's department, any
       27       fees that they were entitled to as justices of the
0047
        1       peace.  In other words, they received no remuneration
        2       except for their salaries.
        3   Q   Are you aware whether staff JPs ever received benefits
        4       and were able to retain them for conducting JP
        5       functions outside of office hours?
        6   A   Yes, there was a provision for overtime work in
        7       effect.  Extra -- extra pay for that.
        8   Q   And are you aware of the provision for payment of
        9       hearing officers?
       10   A   Yes, hearing officers were salaried employees of the
       11       Attorney General's department.
       12   Q   And are you aware of when their remuneration was
       13       specified by regulation rather than through the
       14       collective agreement?
       15   A   That was after the -- the 1991 changes, by regulation,
       16       they -- they continued for a time after 1991, I
       17       believe, to -- to be paid.
       18   Q   Perhaps I could refer you to the legislative appendix,
       19       Volume 1.  Just a moment.
       20            I'm sorry, I should have referred you to the
       21       Hawrelechko affidavit again, Exhibit AA.
       22   A   AA?
       23   Q   Near the back.
       24   A   Must be very near the back.  This one only goes up to
       25       'S'.  Oh, no, 'A', sorry.
       26   Q   If you look on page 523?
       27   A   Yes.
0048
        1   Q   Under Terms and Conditions of Service?
        2   A   Yes.
        3   Q   And it refers to salary of non-sitting justices and
        4       lists a number of individuals in the schedule.  And
        5       what was the date of that regulation?
        6   A   June, 1995.
        7   Q   Now, at the top of page 18 of your report, you
        8       describe the tenure enjoyed by justices of the peace
        9       up to 1991 and subsequent to 1991.  Could you review
       10       that, please?
       11   A   Right.  Tenure until 1991 was at pleasure.  Justice of
       12       the peace commissions could be cancelled at any time,
       13       and were on numerous occasions; if, for example, the
       14       individual moved out of the province, if he took
       15       employment that the government considered unsuitable
       16       for justices of the peace.  This was a rather odd
       17       collection of occupations.  Ministers or priests, the
       18       government excluded from JP appointments.  Owners of
       19       bars was another group that they -- that they put into
       20       this category, and there are a number of occasions in
       21       which people who took up these occupations were forced
       22       to -- were -- yeah, well, were forced to give up their
       23       justice of the peace commissions.
       24   Q   What if the government decided there was no longer a
       25       need for a JP?
       26   MR. HUNTER:             Surely there's another way of
       27       asking that question.
0049
        1   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Can you provide --
        2   MR. HUNTER:             The government can tell us those
        3       things if they want.
        4   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Can you provide some other
        5       examples of when the government may have terminated
        6       appointments?
        7   A   In the 1970s and early 1980s, the government began a
        8       process of, I suppose it could be called, weeding out
        9       the fee justices of the peace.  The justices were
       10       required, as part of their duties, to fill out returns
       11       of the duties that they undertook; and on the basis of
       12       those, the government, in the 1970s and 1980s, did a
       13       series of I suppose you could call them surveys, to
       14       determine whether justices of the peace were needed
       15       any longer in specific areas.  And on the basis of
       16       those surveys of the actual duties that had been
       17       performed by these individuals, a number of justices
       18       of the peace were dismissed at that time.  This is
       19       according to the testimony of Joyce Topilko in the
       20       Magee case.  She was in charge of the justice of the
       21       peace program at that time.
       22   Q   And were there other examples that come to mind?
       23   A   The other principal example is the government's
       24       decision in 1989 to eliminate all police justice of
       25       the peace appointments of both varieties; that is to
       26       say, the senior officer appointments that had existed
       27       since way back in territorial times, and the more
0050
        1       recent kind of police appointments to deal with
        2       traffic tickets.  And in fact, all those appointments
        3       were cancelled by an Order in Council in 1989 that
        4       took effect in January of 1990.
        5   Q   I believe in the last three -- or the second and third
        6       last sentences in that top full paragraph on page 18,
        7       there are some errors that you became aware of?
        8   A   Yes.
        9   Q   Could you --
       10   A   Having to do with compulsory retirement.
       11   Q   Some dates?
       12   A   Yes.  And I had the date of 1955 for the introduction
       13       of compulsory retirement.  That's incorrect.  The date
       14       should be 1965.
       15   MR. HUNTER:             What page are we on?
       16   A   Sorry, it's the first full paragraph on page 18.
       17   MR. HUNTER:             Thank you.
       18   A   In 1965, the legislation introduced compulsory
       19       retirement at age 75 for justices of the peace, and
       20       age 70 for provincial judges.  Six years later, in
       21       1971, the age was reduced to 70 for justices of the
       22       peace as well.
       23   Q   So where it reads 75 for provincial judges and 75 --
       24       or -- and justices, it should read age 75 for justices
       25       and --
       26   A   70.
       27   Q   -- 75 (sic) years for provincial judges.
0051
        1   A   That's -- and 70 for provincial judges, that's
        2       correct.
        3   Q   And the next sentence?
        4   A   The next sentence should read:
        5
        6          The age of retirement for justices of the peace
        7          was reduced to 70 six years later.
        8
        9   Q   And that would have been in 1971?
       10   A   In 1971.
       11   Q   In the next section of your report, you state a
       12       question that was asked of you:
       13
       14          "Was there a tradition or practice in the (old)
       15          NWT prior to 1905 and in Alberta since 1905 that
       16          justices of the peace enjoyed security of tenure
       17          or financial security?"
       18
       19       What is your understanding of the meaning of "security
       20       of tenure"?
       21   A   I understand that security of tenure means that you
       22       cannot be removed from your position without cause
       23       after an impartial inquiry.
       24   Q   And what is your understanding of the meaning of
       25       "financial security"?
       26   A   My understanding of the meaning of financial security
       27       is that your employer cannot arbitrarily reduce or
0052
        1       eliminate your salary.
        2   Q   Could you review the opinions provided in that section
        3       of the report?
        4   A   Yes.  It's my opinion that there was no security of
        5       tenure for justices of the peace in the North West
        6       Territories prior to 1905, or in Alberta from 1905 to
        7       1991, and that there was no financial security in
        8       those periods likewise.
        9   Q   And what is your opinion on the security of tenure
       10       after 1991?
       11   A   After 1991, with the introduction of the Justice of
       12       the Peace Review Committee, justices of the peace had
       13       security of tenure in that they could be removed only
       14       for cause after a judicial inquiry.
       15   Q   And in your opinion was this security of tenure after
       16       1991, what type of security of tenure?
       17   A   Well, I would call it a limited security of tenure.
       18       It isn't absolute in the sense that justices couldn't
       19       be removed for -- under any circumstances whatsoever,
       20       simply for -- for cause and after the proper inquiry.
       21   Q   At the time of the preparation of your report, were
       22       you aware of reforms in the 1970s to the Supreme Court
       23       of Canada, the Federal Court of Appeal and -- and
       24       Provincial Courts of Appeal?
       25   A   Yes.
       26   Q   And how did they impact on the role of -- or the
       27       office of justice of the peace?
0053
        1   A   I cannot see that the reforms to the Supreme Court, to
        2       the Federal Court and the Courts of Appeal in the
        3       province, important as they surely were, had any
        4       impact at all on justices of the peace.
        5   Q   And you've described some of the changes to the
        6       Provincial Court at the time.  Did that have any
        7       impact?
        8   A   Yes, I think it did.  I think the changes that took
        9       place in the Provincial Court after 1971 had some
       10       quite clear impacts on the justices of the peace, the
       11       most important perhaps being the province's decision
       12       to stop justices of the peace from hearing cases
       13       altogether.
       14   Q   And are you aware of any changes to the Constitution
       15       in the early '80s, and did they have any impact on the
       16       role or office of the JP?
       17   A   The --
       18   MR. HUNTER:             That may very well be a question
       19       for Your Lordship to determine.  I gather we're having
       20       another historian's view about the matter.
       21   MR. MAYBANK:            Sir --
       22   MR. HUNTER:             Which is fine.
       23   THE COURT:              It will go to weight.
       24   MR. MAYBANK:            Yes.  Let me rephrase that
       25       question.
       26   Q   Did you -- at the time of the writing of your report,
       27       were you aware of any changes to the Constitution that
0054
        1       happened in the early '80s?
        2   A   In 1982, the Charter -- Charter of Rights and Freedoms
        3       came into effect, which had a huge impact on Canadian
        4       law in a great many areas.
        5   Q   And was that a consideration for you when you were
        6       preparing your report?
        7   A   I suppose so, although -- in the sense that there were
        8       certain cases arising from the Charter that had
        9       defined what was meant by security of tenure, which
       10       was the question that I was asked to look at.
       11   Q   In your opinion, was there an evolving attitude
       12       towards the office of the justice of the peace that
       13       was taking place for the whole period prior to 1991?
       14   A   An evolving attitude on the part of who?
       15   MR. HUNTER:             Right.
       16   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Let me rephrase that.  You were
       17       asked about the history and practice of the justices
       18       of the peace and whether they enjoyed security of
       19       tenure.  Can you focus just on the history and
       20       practice aspects in terms of security of tenure?
       21       You've made it clear that you believe that they were
       22       at pleasure.
       23   A   Yes, I -- as far as the history and practice is
       24       concerned, it seems to me that the government acted
       25       exactly the same way through the whole period from
       26       1905 up to 1991 when it came to terminating the
       27       appointments of justices of the peace.  Like I can see
0055
        1       no difference in their attitude or their actions in
        2       that respect.
        3   Q   Thank you, Dr. Macleod.  Those would conclude my
        4       questions.  Or I'm sorry, those wouldn't conclude my
        5       questions.
        6   MR. MAYBANK:            My Lord, after I became aware of
        7       my friend's position in relation to arguments on the
        8       need for a Judicial Compensation Commission yesterday,
        9       I spoke with Dr. Macleod at lunchtime.  It seemed to
       10       me that he had some useful evidence available to him
       11       from some other work that I was aware that he had done
       12       that would be helpful to the court with respect to the
       13       issue of whether a Judicial Compensation Commission
       14       might be required for any of the categories of justice
       15       of the peace.  His focus was particularly in relation
       16       to sitting JPs, but some of the information or
       17       evidence would be of assistance, I believe, to the
       18       court in relation to the issue generally.
       19            Dr. Macleod has prepared a brief supplementary
       20       report which he provided to me this morning.  I
       21       provided it to my friends first thing this morning,
       22       and I would propose, in light of the additional issue
       23       that my friends have put before the court, to have Dr.
       24       Macleod provide us with the benefit of the research
       25       and information that he has that I believe that -- or
       26       that the government believes would be relevant to this
       27       new issue.
0056
        1   THE COURT:              Mr. Hunter?
        2   MR. HUNTER:             My Lord, I saw it one minute to
        3       ten.  I haven't had it.  Perhaps I can read it over
        4       the break and advise whether I oppose or what comments
        5       I may have.
        6   THE COURT:              All right.  Why don't we take the
        7       morning break, 15 minutes.
        8   (ADJOURNMENT)
        9   THE COURT:              Mr. Hunter, have you had a chance
       10       to review that document?
       11   MR. HUNTER:             I have, My Lord, and I am sure my
       12       friend will, in argument, show its relevance, and I
       13       have no objection to it going in.
       14   THE COURT:              All right.
       15   MR. MAYBANK:            Thank you, sir.
       16   THE COURT:              Show it to the witness and have
       17       him identify it.
       18   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Dr. Macleod, the clerk has
       19       provided you with a copy of a document entitled
       20       Supplementary Report of R.C. Macleod, dated January
       21       12th, 1999.  Did you prepare that report?
       22   A   I did.
       23   MR. MAYBANK:            May I have that report entered as
       24       an exhibit, please?
       25   THE COURT:              Exhibit 3?
       26   THE COURT CLERK:        That's correct, My Lord.
       27
0057
        1                           *EXHIBIT 3 - SUPPLEMENTARY REPORT
        2                           OF R.C. MACLEOD, DATED JANUARY 12,
        3                           1999
        4
        5   Q   MR. MAYBANK:        Dr. Macleod, in the first
        6       paragraph of your report, you refer to events leading
        7       to the transformation of police magistrates into
        8       Provincial Court judges.  Can you describe that for
        9       us?
       10   A   Yes.  The change took place in Alberta about the same
       11       time as it took place in many other parts of the
       12       country.  I believe the first similar one was in
       13       Ontario in 1969.  This was a -- I think there are two
       14       factors operating here:  One is that there was an
       15       atmosphere of change in the air, change and reform of
       16       the judicial system.  Mr. Trudeau was in power in
       17       Ottawa; Mr. Lougheed was in power in Alberta; both new
       18       to the job and I think anxious to reform it.  And this
       19       happened at the same time there was an enormous
       20       increase in the number of cases coming before the
       21       courts; so that once the Provincial Court was -- the
       22       Provincial Court judges were created in 1971, they
       23       had, almost immediately, a very important role in the
       24       judicial system.
       25            As I point out in the report, by 1973, the
       26       Provincial Courts were not only handling almost all
       27       the minor traffic and other cases, but 93 percent of
0058
        1       the roughly 24,000 indictable offences tried in the
        2       province in that year.
        3            Now, the expansion of the jurisdiction of
        4       Provincial Court judges has continued since that
        5       time.  The Criminal Code has been amended on a number
        6       of occasions to add to the offences that Provincial
        7       Court judges can deal with.  They've been given a
        8       responsibility in family law, and a number of
        9       provinces have raised the limits on small claims that
       10       they can hear.
       11   Q   And you compared that with the powers and
       12       responsibility of justices of the peace in the same
       13       period?
       14   A   Yes.  In my opinion there was no corresponding
       15       increase in the powers and responsibilities of
       16       justices of the peace.  And indeed, if you look at the
       17       individual categories of justice of the peace, in some
       18       respects their powers were narrowed in this period.
       19   Q   Can you give examples?
       20   A   If you take the generic fee justice of the peace who
       21       had quite broad powers before 1971, and you look at,
       22       for example, staff justices or police justices or the
       23       hearing officers after 1978, their powers are, in each
       24       case, less than those of the fee JPs.  In 19 --
       25   Q   On page --
       26   A   I'm sorry.
       27   Q   Sorry, did you have something further?
0059
        1   A   No.
        2   Q   On page 2, the second paragraph, you refer to the
        3       creation of the office of sitting justice of the peace
        4       in 1991.  What led to that creation?
        5   A   What led to that creation was the fact that the
        6       Provincial Courts were bogged down with the
        7       overwhelming number of cases that they had to deal
        8       with, and the creating of sitting justices of the
        9       peace was an effort to try to remove traffic and other
       10       minor offences from those courts to enable them to
       11       conduct their business more expeditiously.
       12   Q   You did some statistical work, I understand, comparing
       13       the practice of the Provincial Court to the practice
       14       of the Traffic Court where sitting justices of the
       15       peace preside?
       16   A   Yes.
       17   Q   Could you review that, please?
       18   A   The statistical material from the period from about
       19       1992, three, through 1997, '98, indicates that in
       20       those years -- this is Calgary, these statistics are
       21       taken from Calgary, roughly five times as many cases
       22       are commenced in Traffic Court as in the adult
       23       Provincial Court in Calgary, and that there's a
       24       complete difference in the kind of cases.  The Traffic
       25       Courts are exactly what the name says.  They're purely
       26       and simply traffic courts.  They don't do criminal
       27       matters.  They do a few other minor bylaw, municipal
0060
        1       bylaw offences and things of that sort, whereas the
        2       business of the Provincial Court is very largely
        3       criminal.
        4   Q   Now, are you aware of the legal authority that sitting
        5       justices of the peace have in terms of the types of
        6       trials they can sit?
        7   A   Yes, they may not sit criminal matters.
        8   Q   But in terms of the ones that they can sit?
        9   A   Yes, there's a range of statutes that there are --
       10       that they are responsible for.  I'm not sure whether
       11       it's in here or not.
       12   Q   We do have it in the legislative summary, but for the
       13       purposes today, how does the actual practice that you
       14       found of the sitting JPs compare to their authority?
       15   A   Well, they sit a much narrower range of cases than the
       16       old fee JPs used to.
       17   Q   No, but in terms of --
       18   A   A much -- a much larger volume of cases, a huge volume
       19       of cases in fact, but in terms of the kind of cases,
       20       they are overwhelmingly traffic, traffic cases.
       21   Q   And the type of Provincial Court cases, I believe
       22       you've got a chart --
       23   A   Yes.
       24   Q   -- attached to your report.  Chart 2?
       25   A   Yes.
       26   Q   Can you describe what that chart illustrates?
       27   A   This is Calgary Provincial Court, and the large bars
0061
        1       that you see on the left are federal cases; that is,
        2       mostly Criminal Code matters.
        3            The very small ones on the right are Highway
        4       Traffic Act, Motor Vehicle Act, and other provincial
        5       and municipal offences.  So that it's apparent that
        6       the -- you know, the overwhelming amount of the work
        7       done by the Provincial Courts is in relation to
        8       federal matters.
        9   MR. MAYBANK:            Thank you, Dr. Macleod.  That
       10       would conclude all my questions.
       11   THE COURT:              Thank you.  Mr. Hunter?
       12   MR. HUNTER CROSS-EXAMINES THE WITNESS:
       13   Q   Dr. Macleod, I would like to -- I need some help from
       14       you on administrative functions and judicial
       15       functions.  There is a distinction, isn't there?
       16   A   There certainly is.
       17   Q   And would you agree that the conduct of the following
       18       criminal jurisdiction functions are judicial
       19       functions:  the conduct of judicial interim release or
       20       bail hearings, the confirmation or cancellation of
       21       police process --
       22   THE COURT:              Mr. Hunter, just a moment.
       23       Mr. Maybank?
       24   MR. MAYBANK:            This sounds like a legal
       25       question.  There are certainly criminal cases on
       26       whether those matters constitute judicial or
       27       administrative functions.
0062
        1   MR. HUNTER:             Well --
        2   MR. MAYBANK:            If my friend is asking for a legal
        3       opinion.
        4   MR. HUNTER:             I would say he's a historian.
        5       He's been giving evidence as a historian, so that's --
        6       I know he's not a lawyer.
        7   MR. MAYBANK:            Yes.
        8   MR. HUNTER:             As a historian, let me try to --
        9   THE COURT:              I think he can answer it in the
       10       context of his credentials.
       11   MR. HUNTER:             Yes.
       12   THE COURT:              We know it's not a legal
       13       interpretation.
       14   Q   MR. HUNTER:         In doing your work here, Doctor,
       15       it's important for you to understand that there are
       16       administrative functions and judicial functions.
       17   A   Yes.
       18   Q   And you've already told me that it's an important
       19       difference.  And my question here is:  In your
       20       understanding of judicial functions, would it include
       21       the criminal jurisdiction functions of the conduct of
       22       judicial interim release or bail hearings, the
       23       confirmation or cancellation of police process, and
       24       the issuance of search warrants and arrest warrants?
       25   A   Yes.
       26   MR. HUNTER:             Okay.  Well, My Lord, I believe
       27       Professor Green is in the courtroom.  I'm not certain
0063
        1       that it's appropriate for him to be here during the
        2       cross-examination.
        3   THE COURT:              That's probably a fair comment.  I
        4       know this is exciting, Professor Green, but we'll ask
        5       you to excuse yourself.
        6   MR. HUNTER:             Nothing personal, Professor.
        7   MR. MAYBANK:            It was kind of you to suggest that
        8       he be here for your cross-examination.
        9   MR. HUNTER:             I had not said that.  And if you
       10       heard me say it, you misunderstood me.
       11   MR. MAYBANK:            You said that to me just before
       12       the break.
       13   MR. HUNTER:             You misheard me.
       14   THE COURT:              Carry on, Mr. Hunter.
       15   MR. HUNTER:             Thank you.
       16   Q   And one of the reasons I asked you that question is,
       17       do you understand that those are the functions of the
       18       Applicants?
       19   A   I do.
       20   Q   Okay.  In your substance of opinion which may not be
       21       before the court, but I'll have it handed up.
       22            Is that your substance of opinion statement?
       23   A   Yes, it is.
       24   Q   And would you turn to page 3?
       25   A   Yes.
       26   Q   And this was what concerned me.  It's the third -- the
       27       fourth sentence.  "These were people..."  It's about
0064
        1       the first --
        2   A   Yes.
        3   Q   -- full paragraph:
        4
        5          "These were people in positions such as court
        6          clerk and professionals such as psychologists in
        7          provincial correctional institutions whose
        8          authority was restricted to such administrative
        9          duties as taking informations, issuing summonses
       10          and warrants, and attending to judicial interim
       11          release."
       12
       13       Did you mean to say "administrative" or did you mean
       14       to say "judicial"?
       15   A   I guess what I was trying to do was to separate those
       16       duties from the duties of sitting trials.
       17   Q   But we're clear that --
       18   A   Yes.
       19   Q   -- taking informations, issuing summonses and warrants
       20       and attending to judicial interim release are judicial
       21       functions.
       22   A   Yes.
       23   Q   Okay.  That's where I needed to get some clarification
       24       from you.  Now --
       25   THE COURT:              Did you wish to mark this?
       26   MR. HUNTER:             Perhaps I should, My Lord.
       27       Exhibit 4, if I may?
0065
        1   THE COURT:              Thank you.
        2
        3                           *EXHIBIT 4 - SUBSTANCE OF OPINION
        4                           OF DR. MACLEOD
        5
        6   MR. HUNTER:             Now, with respect to Exhibit 3
        7       which you have just finished giving your direct
        8       examination on, and this really deals with the matter
        9       of the availability of statistics, and you have some
       10       understanding about the statistics that are routinely
       11       collected with respect to the work of justices of the
       12       peace?
       13   A   Yes.
       14   Q   And I would assume, but you can perhaps tell me, that
       15       for the work that the Applicants do, as we've
       16       described and you've agreed are judicial functions, I
       17       assume there are statistics available that would help
       18       us about that?
       19   A   Yes, I would assume so.
       20   Q   And they would indicate the nature of the work, the
       21       frequency of the work and things of that nature?
       22   A   Again I would assume so.  I have not in fact seen
       23       them.
       24   Q   You would expect that they exist, but you've not seen
       25       them.
       26   A   Correct.
       27   Q   And you have not made any request to review them with
0066
        1       regard to giving evidence here.
        2   A   That's correct.
        3   MR. HUNTER:             Now, on the matter of -- just
        4       returning to this administrative and judicial, Madam
        5       Clerk, would you place before the witness the
        6       affidavit of John Michael Maguire which is dated the
        7       13th of November, 1998, which has been filed with the
        8       court.
        9            November 13th, do you have that?
       10   THE COURT:              I have one that's sworn October 9.
       11   MR. HUNTER:             This, I think, is a supplementary.
       12   THE COURT:              No, I don't have it.
       13   MR. HUNTER:             I think my learned friend can help
       14       me here, My Lord, with his copy, for which I am
       15       grateful.
       16   THE COURT:              Thank you, Mr. Maybank.
       17   Q   MR. HUNTER:         Now, sir, if you would turn up in
       18       the affidavit of Mr. Maguire the letter of March 26th,
       19       1998 from the Minister of Justice, which is part of
       20       Exhibit 'B' to the affidavit.  Do you see that?
       21   A   I do.
       22   Q   And have you seen this letter before?
       23   A   I don't believe I have.
       24   Q   You recognize it as a letter from the Minister of
       25       Justice and Attorney General?
       26   A   Yes.
       27   Q   To the Chief Judge?
0067
        1   A   Yes.
        2   Q   With copies to ten other judges of the Provincial
        3       Court?
        4   A   Right.
        5   Q   Have you any reason to doubt its authenticity?
        6   A   None whatsoever.
        7   Q   Okay.  Now, you'll see that the Minister is dealing
        8       with the Justice Statutes Amendment Act, 1998, which,
        9       of course, is something that you were concerned with,
       10       or at least aware of --
       11   A   Yes.
       12   Q   -- with respect to your report.  And you will see in
       13       the first paragraph, the second sentence:
       14
       15          "The purpose of the Justice Statutes Amendment
       16          Act is simply to provide for the independence of
       17          Provincial Court Judges, Masters and Justices of
       18          the Peace in compliance with the common law and
       19          the recent Wickman decision of the Supreme Court
       20          of Canada."
       21
       22       Do you see that?
       23   A   I do.
       24   Q   Was that your understanding of the purpose of the
       25       Justice Statutes Amendment Act when you embarked upon
       26       and completed your work with respect to the evidence
       27       that you've given here?
0068
        1   A   That...
        2   Q   That statement as to purpose?
        3   A   I believe so.
        4   Q   Okay.  And then if you'd turn to page 2, you'll see in
        5       the first paragraph:
        6
        7          "At the present time, Justices of the Peace
        8          perform a number of functions some of which are
        9          judicial and some of which are administrative."
       10
       11       And, of course, you agree with that.  We've just been
       12       through that, correct?
       13   A   Yes.
       14   Q   And then:
       15
       16          "The Justice Statutes Amendment Act establishes
       17          two categories of Justices of the Peace who
       18          perform judicial functions (sitting Justices of
       19          the Peace...",
       20
       21       which seems to be the principal activity that concerns
       22       Exhibit 3 --
       23   A   Yes --
       24   Q   -- would you agree?
       25   A   -- that's correct.
       26   Q   And the Applicants are not sitting justices of the
       27       peace, are they?
0069
        1   A   No, they're not.
        2   Q   And I'll carry on:
        3
        4          "... and presiding Justices of the Peace) and one
        5          category that performs administrative functions
        6          (non-presiding Justices of the Peace)."
        7
        8       Do you see that?
        9   A   I do.
       10   Q   And is it your understanding of the matter that the --
       11       if the Justice Statutes Amendment Act and the impugned
       12       section are proclaimed, that the Applicants would no
       13       longer perform their judicial function; is that your
       14       understanding?
       15   MR. MAYBANK:            My Lord, I take the position that
       16       Mr. Hunter is going beyond the scope of the report.
       17       Dr. Macleod, as a historian, gave evidence on the
       18       history and traditions of the office of justice of the
       19       peace, and he provided no opinions or evidence in
       20       relation to the Justice Statutes Amendment Act or the
       21       impugned provision.
       22   MR. HUNTER:             My question arises out of the
       23       witness's evident understanding of the various
       24       categories of justice of the peace upon which he's
       25       testified in direct, and I would assume that with that
       26       knowledge, he would be able to answer these
       27       questions.  If he's not, that's fine.
0070
        1   THE COURT:              Well, I'll really merely caution
        2       the witness that if you feel not capable of answering
        3       the question, then just say so; but if you have formed
        4       an opinion or have knowledge which permits you to
        5       answer it, then you can.
        6   A   I think my answer would have to be that yes, indeed,
        7       these -- the category of non-presiding justice --
        8       perhaps you could repeat the question --
        9   MR. HUNTER:             Yes.
       10   A   -- so I can answer.
       11   MR. HUNTER:             I heard your answer, but I've
       12       forgotten the question.  Perhaps, Madam Court
       13       Reporter, you can find that question, and we'll see if
       14       it had any intelligibility to it.
       15   THE COURT REPORTER: (by reading)
       16
       17          "Q  And is it your understanding of the matter
       18          that the -- if the Justice Statutes Amendment Act
       19          and the impugned section are proclaimed, that the
       20          Applicants would no longer perform their judicial
       21          function; is that your understanding?"
       22
       23   A   Yes, that is my understanding.
       24   Q   MR. HUNTER:         Thank you.  And then in the next
       25        -- maybe I didn't finish that one.  Just continuing
       26       that first paragraph, if I didn't, just for the
       27       record:
0071
        1
        2          "... and one category that performs
        3          administrative functions (non-presiding Justices
        4          of the Peace).
        5
        6       The next sentence, paragraph:
        7
        8          "Justices of the Peace who perform judicial
        9          functions are provided with independence under
       10          the new Act."
       11
       12       Do you see that?
       13   A   I do.
       14   Q   And then you'll see in this letter that the Minister
       15       speaks of the powers of justices of the peace in the
       16       third paragraph.  Quote:
       17
       18          "As you are aware, there are many statutes and
       19          regulations (both federal and provincial) which
       20          currently confer powers on Justices of the
       21          Peace."
       22
       23   A   Yes.
       24   Q
       25          "The Act does not enlarge the jurisdiction of
       26          Justices of the Peace.  Justices of the Peace are
       27          currently invested with extensive powers under
0072
        1          federal and provincial legislation, including the
        2          Criminal Code."
        3
        4       Would that be your understanding as well, based on
        5       your review of the matter from your standpoint of a
        6       historian?
        7   A   That...
        8   Q   What's in the first sentence and the second sentence,
        9       that's true in your own study of the matter?
       10   A   I don't think I'm prepared to answer that one.  I
       11       haven't looked at the Act in sufficient detail to know
       12       whether there has been any enlargement or not.
       13   Q   Okay.  Let me then just parse it if I may.  The first
       14       sentence:
       15
       16          "As you are aware, there are many statutes and
       17          regulations (both federal and provincial) which
       18          currently confer powers on Justice of the Peace."
       19
       20       That accords with your own understanding of the
       21       matter?
       22   A   Absolutely.
       23   Q   And then let's go to the third sentence:
       24
       25          "Justices of the Peace are currently invested
       26          with extensive powers under federal and
       27          provincial legislation, including the Criminal
0073
        1          Code."
        2
        3       Does that also correspond with your own understanding?
        4   A   Yes.
        5   Q   Thank you.  And on page 3, the Minister, in the fifth
        6       full paragraph, states this:
        7
        8          "Another requirement of independence is security
        9          of tenure so that the government cannot
       10          arbitrarily remove a Judge."
       11
       12       Would you agree with that statement?
       13   A   Yes.
       14   Q   And are you aware of any effort or attempt to question
       15       the competence or conduct of the Applicants by using
       16       the mechanism of the Justice of the Peace Review
       17       Council?
       18   A   Perhaps you could repeat that.
       19   Q   I'll try.  Are you aware of any attempt -- let me make
       20       it simpler -- to have the Applicants removed pursuant
       21       to the removal provisions of the Justice of the Peace
       22       Act?
       23   A   No.
       24   Q   In your review of matters did you inquire as to
       25       whether that took place?
       26   A   No, I did not.
       27   Q   And are you aware of the Judicial Council's
0074
        1       determination on qualifications that justices of the
        2       peace going forward under the Justice Statutes
        3       Amendment Act have to be lawyers with five years'
        4       experience?
        5   A   I am.
        6   Q   And were you made aware of the information that the
        7       Judicial Council considered in coming up with those
        8       recommendations?
        9   A   No, I don't believe I am.
       10   Q   And do you have any knowledge that the Judicial
       11       Council considered the particular position and effect
       12       upon the Applicants of their recommendation?
       13   A   I have no knowledge of what the Judicial Council
       14       considered in its deliberations.
       15   Q   And that would extend to no knowledge of the Judicial
       16       Council considering the independence of the Applicants
       17       with respect to the recommendations that ultimately
       18       came forth from the Judicial Council on
       19       qualifications?  You have no information of that
       20       either?
       21   A   I have no knowledge of that, no.
       22   Q   And just carrying on with the fifth paragraph of the
       23       Minister's letter, in the second sentence:
       24
       25          "Judicial Councils are provided for Provincial
       26          Court Judges, Justices of the Peace and Masters
       27          so that complaints regarding the conduct of those
0075
        1          persons are considered by an independent body."
        2
        3       Do you see that?
        4   A   I do.
        5   Q   And based on your own understanding of the matter,
        6       that conforms with your own view?
        7   A   You mean as a statement of fact?
        8   Q   Yes.  That's your understanding?
        9   A   Absolutely.
       10   Q   Yes, of course.  And then finally in this paragraph:
       11
       12          "Sanctions against a Provincial Court Judge,
       13          Justice of the Peace or Master are only possible
       14          following the Judicial Council process, including
       15          a judicial inquiry."
       16
       17       Do you see that?
       18   A   Yes.
       19   Q   Do you take any exception to that statement, based on
       20       your own understanding?
       21   A   None whatsoever.
       22   Q   Thank you.  Those are all matters respecting security
       23       of tenure, correct?
       24   A   Yes.
       25   Q   And then in the second last paragraph, it is stated:
       26
       27          "Let me assure you that our sole intention in
0076
        1          passing this Bill was to protect the Provincial
        2          Court, including Justices of the Peace from any
        3          attack on their ability to hear matters."
        4
        5       Do you see that?
        6   A   I do.
        7   Q   Is this the first time you've been made aware of that
        8       assurance?
        9   MR. MAYBANK:            Well, My Lord, the witness has
       10       stated that he hasn't read the letter.
       11   THE COURT:              He's being asked, though, whether
       12       he learned that from any other source I take it.
       13   A   The --
       14   MR. HUNTER:             That's correct.
       15   A   Whether I learned that -- what the intentions of the
       16       government were?
       17   Q   Whether you were made aware of the assurance that I
       18       read in that sentence, and I'll read it again.
       19
       20          "Let me assure you that our sole intention in
       21          passing this Bill was to protect the Provincial
       22          Court, including Justices of the Peace from any
       23          attack on their ability to hear matters."
       24
       25       Have you ever been made aware of that sentiment before
       26       reading it here?
       27   A   Not to my knowledge.
0077
        1   Q   Is that inconsistent with any information that you may
        2       have reviewed?
        3   A   I don't believe it is.
        4   Q   Okay.  Now, you used the expression in your testimony
        5       in direct, "minor cases".
        6   A   Yes.
        7   Q   I assume you would agree with me that where you stand
        8       is where you sit, and that an accused person facing a
        9       charge might well regard a matter that you would
       10       characterize as minor as major.
       11   A   Well, that's obviously a very subjective way of
       12       looking at it.  I think it's standard practice to
       13       refer to offences which have minor penalties in terms
       14       of short terms of imprisonment or fines as minor
       15       cases, and offences that carry years, or perhaps life
       16       imprisonment, as major.
       17   Q   Okay.  How about something as simple as being deprived
       18       of your liberty by way of arrest; is that a minor
       19       matter?
       20   A   I don't think it's a minor matter for the person
       21       involved.
       22   Q   Exactly.  And the matter of your domicile and someone
       23       coming into it and -- without your consent; is that a
       24       minor matter?
       25   A   No, it's not a minor matter at all.  It's one of the
       26       more fundamental.
       27   Q   And the matter of incarceration and bail; is that a
0078
        1       minor matter?
        2   A   Once again, certainly not for the individual involved.
        3   Q   Yes.  And as a historian, those are basic rights in
        4       this country.
        5   A   They are.
        6   Q   Right.  Now, in your report, if you still have it
        7       before you, Exhibit 2?
        8   A   Yes.
        9   Q   At page 4, in --
       10   A   Yes, I have it.  Page 4?
       11   Q   On page 4 of your report, Exhibit 2.
       12   A   Umm-hmm.
       13   Q   In the third line, you say:
       14
       15          "Obviously there was little room among these
       16          multiple roles for the modern concept of judicial
       17          independence."
       18
       19       Do you see that?
       20   A   I do.
       21   Q   And then just turn to page 12, where you express it
       22       somewhat differently, but perhaps not substantively.
       23   A   Umm-hmm.
       24   Q   The last line on page 12, you say:
       25
       26          "Appointing police as justices of the peace with
       27          the power to preside over trials is obviously
0079
        1          deeply offensive to modern notions of the
        2          independence of the judiciary..."
        3
        4       Do you see that?
        5   A   I do.
        6   Q   Should the court have in mind that when you use those
        7       expressions, "modern notions of the independence of
        8       the judiciary" and "modern concept of judicial
        9       independence," that you include the jurisprudence
       10       respecting the Charter, and particularly with respect
       11       to independence of the judiciary?
       12   A   Yes.
       13   Q   So I can understand that when you say "modern notions"
       14       and "modern concept," you're speaking of today.
       15   A   I am.  I'm speaking of certainly the period since the
       16       introduction of the Charter.
       17   Q   Now, in this matter, Dr. Macleod, and you may want to
       18       turn up, while you've got Exhibit 2 there, page 19,
       19       and I want to just take you through that part which is
       20       entitled Appendix.
       21   A   Yes.
       22   Q   And as I read it, and you can confirm, you were asked
       23       to deal with a number of aspects of the history of the
       24       office of justice of the peace, including the history,
       25       practice -- and practice, traditions and jurisdiction
       26       of the office of justice of the peace as they relate
       27       to the legal issue of independence, correct?
0080
        1   A   Correct.
        2   Q   And you were to express an opinion on the following
        3       question:
        4
        5          "Was there a tradition or practice in the (old)
        6          NWT prior to 1905 and in Alberta since 1905..."
        7
        8       and I'll say to the present day,
        9
       10          "... that justices of the peace enjoyed security
       11          of tenure or financial security?"
       12
       13   A   Yes.
       14   Q   All right.  And Exhibit 2 contains your response to
       15       that assignment, correct?
       16   A   Correct.
       17   Q   Now, is it fair for the court to conclude that this
       18       historical review in the context of the assignment
       19       included a consideration of the Constitution of
       20       Canada?
       21   A   Yes.
       22   Q   And particularly the Charter?
       23   A   Yes.
       24   Q   And more particularly, Section 7 and Section 11(d)?
       25   A   Yes.
       26   Q   Would you agree with me -- or at least could you help
       27       me, where is that set out in your report, that
0081
        1       consideration?  I didn't see it.
        2   A   Perhaps not explicitly.
        3   Q   Well, is it "perhaps"?  I couldn't find it.
        4   A   Okay, in that case I would say not -- not explicitly.
        5   Q   And equally, did your historical review include the
        6       jurisprudence respecting independence and
        7       impartiality; that is to say, the legal issue of
        8       independence?
        9   A   Some of it.
       10   Q   But there's no reference to any of that jurisprudence
       11       in your report.
       12   A   That's true.
       13   Q   Is there a reason for that?
       14   A   I'm not sure whether there's a reason or not, beyond
       15       saying that perhaps as a historian, I tended to
       16       concentrate more on the practice than on the legal
       17       issues.
       18   Q   Well, as a historian, Doctor, do not the
       19       constitutional pronouncements of the Supreme Court of
       20       Canada constitute appropriate history?
       21   A   Absolutely.
       22   Q   All right.  And I understand that you reviewed the
       23       Irving Report?
       24   A   Yes.
       25   Q   This is in connection with this report, Exhibit 2?
       26   A   Yes.
       27   Q   The Patton Report?
0082
        1   A   Yes.
        2   Q   And the Klinck Report?
        3   A   Yes.
        4   Q   Did you review any other such reports or studies
        5       dealing with the matters that those reports dealt
        6       with, since the Klinck Report and up to the present
        7       time?
        8   A   No.
        9   Q   Did you inquire as to whether there were any other
       10       such reports that, for instance, addressed the same
       11       issues as the Klinck Report did, but with this
       12       exception, and that is the decision in Wickman or
       13       Campbell or the Provincial Court Judges' case?
       14   A   No, I did not.
       15   Q   And you would agree with me that the Klinck Report was
       16       a very complete analysis of Valente and Beauregard?
       17   A   I believe so.
       18   Q   And dealt expressly with justices of the peace?
       19   A   Yes.
       20   Q   And indicated a number of problems that needed to be
       21       cured by amendments.
       22   A   Yes.
       23   Q   And those recommendations, for the most part, found
       24       their way into the statute in 1991.
       25   A   Yes, they did.
       26   Q   To overcome the perceived difficulties arising out of
       27       the jurisprudence with respect to the office.
0083
        1   A   That's correct.
        2   Q   And do I have this right, sir, that being aware of
        3       that, you did not inquire of those retaining you as to
        4       whether a similar analysis had been done with respect
        5       to the Provincial Court Judges' case and in the
        6       context of the Justice Statutes Amendment Act?
        7   A   That's correct.
        8   Q   You didn't inquire about that.
        9   A   I didn't.
       10   Q   And no one offered that to you, correct?
       11   A   Correct.
       12   Q   Now, you would agree with me, I trust, that the terms
       13       of your research certainly enabled you to pursue those
       14       matters.
       15   A   Yes.
       16   Q   And I take that from page 20 of Exhibit 2, Terms of
       17       Research:
       18
       19          "This report has been undertaken according to
       20          terms agreed upon by the Alberta Department of
       21          Justice and the researcher.  Both parties have
       22          insisted that research for this report be
       23          conducted in an independent manner.
       24
       25          Although the Department of Justice has described
       26          in general terms the topics to be addressed by
       27          the research as noted above, it has requested
0084
        1          that the historical assessment be conducted in as
        2          objective and independent a manner as possible.
        3          Within this general framework the questions to be
        4          pursued are to be set independently by the
        5          researcher; the researcher is free to draw
        6          conclusions consistent with the historical
        7          evidence."
        8
        9       And that was the arrangement.
       10   A   That was the arrangement.
       11   Q   Did it not occur to you -- well, first of all, when
       12       you were doing this work, were you not aware of the
       13       Provincial Court Judges' case?
       14   A   Yes, I was.
       15   Q   And you had studied it?
       16   A   I had looked at it, yes.
       17   Q   Simply looked at it or studied it?
       18   A   I -- I will say that I did not study it at great
       19       length.  In these cases, time is always a factor, and
       20       you have to make choices about where you're going to
       21       spend your time.  Being a historian and one whose
       22       expertise is mainly in the earlier part, I chose to
       23       devote most of my time to that area.
       24   Q   Well, sir, you virtually ignored the reasons for
       25       judgment in the Provincial Court Judges' case, did you
       26       not?
       27   A   Well, I'm not sure I would agree with that.
0085
        1   Q   Well, did you have a clear understanding of what was
        2       said in that court about independence of justice, the
        3       core characteristics --
        4   A   Yes.
        5   Q   -- the two dimensions, the purpose of these -- of
        6       independence?
        7   A   I believe so.
        8   Q   And just on one other point, while you were doing your
        9       work here that culminated in the report, you were
       10       aware that the issue, at least for the court, was the
       11       perception of lack of independence and impartiality?
       12   A   Yes.
       13   Q   And you were aware that the perception and the
       14       standard of that was that in the eye of the reasonable
       15       and informed person, after reviewing the matter
       16       realistically and practically or having thought the
       17       matter through, would reasonably be seen to appear to
       18       be a compromise of these constitutional rights.
       19   A   Yes.
       20   Q   You're aware of that.  And you were aware that two of
       21       the three core characteristics, security of tenure and
       22       financial security, were the two matters that you were
       23       to expressly address.
       24   A   Correct.
       25   Q   And you were aware that the court had spoken at length
       26       on that in the -- let me call it the Campbell case.
       27   A   Yes.
0086
        1   Q   That's one way we've been calling it, correct?
        2   A   Correct.
        3   Q   And had quite a bit to say about that.
        4   A   Yes.
        5   Q   And also the court stated that there were two
        6       dimensions of judicial independence:  one, the
        7       individual independence; and two, the institution or
        8       collective independence.
        9   A   Yes.
       10   Q   And the Chief Justice, speaking for himself and five
       11       others, had quite a bit to say about that.
       12   A   Yes.
       13   Q   And in fact, you were aware that the court was
       14       unanimous in dealing with the Section 11(d) Charter
       15       analysis.
       16   A   Right.
       17   Q   And you were aware that the purpose of the
       18       institutional or collective dimension of financial
       19       security was to protect an organ of the Constitution
       20       which in turn is charged with the responsibility of
       21       protecting that document and the fundamental values
       22       contained in it.
       23   A   Yes.
       24   Q   And the need to avoid the possibly or the appearance
       25       of political interference through economic
       26       manipulation was to ensure public confidence in the
       27       administration of justice.
0087
        1   A   Yes.
        2   Q   So having known all that, why wouldn't you have at
        3       least included it in your report?
        4   A   Well, it referred specifically to Provincial Court
        5       judges and not to justices of the peace.
        6   Q   So did you come to some belief after reading it that
        7       it had no application to the judicial work done by the
        8       Applicants?
        9   A   That I think is a legal question that's beyond my
       10       competence.
       11   Q   Well, you appear to have distinguished the cases not
       12       dealing with justices of the peace, and I'm wondering
       13       how you came to that conclusion.
       14   A   Because I believe it was in that judgment that the
       15       court specifically said that a different -- that this
       16       judgment did not apply to justices of the peace, and
       17       in fact a different standard was to be -- a lesser
       18       standard of independence was to be applied.
       19   Q   So you have a clear memory that that's what was said?
       20   A   That's my memory.
       21   Q   And that was the reason it didn't have any prominence
       22       in your analysis?
       23   A   I would think so.
       24   Q   Thank you.  And you were present in court yesterday?
       25   A   I was.
       26   Q   And you may have heard reference to the Justice of the
       27       Peace Manual?
0088
        1   A   I have.
        2   Q   And is that something you're familiar with?
        3   A   I've looked at it, yes.
        4   Q   And did you look at it in connection with the
        5       preparation of this report?
        6   A   I did.
        7   Q   You made no reference to it?
        8   A   No.
        9   Q   Can you explain why?
       10   A   Once again, I guess it would be a question of the time
       11       available to me.
       12   Q   I see.  Am I to understand and is the court to
       13       understand that you only had so much time that you
       14       could spend on this?
       15   A   Absolutely.
       16   Q   Ah.  But you don't qualify your report on the basis of
       17       not having enough time.
       18   A   No.
       19   Q   And are you aware of the Judicial Selection Process
       20       Review Committee and its statement about justices of
       21       the peace being judicial officers?
       22   A   I think you'd have to refresh my memory --
       23   Q   I will.
       24   A   -- about that, sir.
       25   Q   This is a report in the end of April of this year,
       26       which I think is in the materials.
       27            Tab 14 of Volume 2 of our authorities.  Let me
0089
        1       just -- Madam Clerk can just hand this up to you.
        2       It's a very brief statement on page 14, but you may
        3       recognize the document.  Or maybe you won't.
        4   A   Yes.
        5   Q   You've seen that before?
        6   A   Yes, I have.
        7   Q   And am I right it was in the spring of 1998?
        8   A   That this report --
        9   Q   Yes.
       10   A   Yes, I believe so.
       11   Q   And did you have that in mind when you undertook this
       12       work resulting in your report and evidence here?
       13   A   Certainly it was part of the materials that I
       14       considered, yes.
       15   Q   So if we want to talk about modern views, that's
       16       pretty current, isn't it?
       17   A   Just about as current as you can get.
       18   Q   And who are the participants in that?  You can tell, I
       19       think, from the signature page.
       20   A   Would you like me to read them?
       21   Q   Yeah, just identify them if you would.
       22   A   Certainly.  Marlene Graham.
       23   Q   MLA?
       24   A   MLA.  Gordon Flynn, Q.C.
       25   Q   President of the Law Society?
       26   A   Jeffrey McCaig.
       27   Q   Member of the Judicial Council?
0090
        1   A   Chief Judge Edward Wachowich.
        2   Q   Provincial Court of Alberta?
        3   A   Yes.  Shirley Keith.
        4   Q   And who is Ms. Keith?
        5   A   I'm not sure who Ms. Keith is, nor am I sure who
        6       Michael Procter, the final member is.
        7   Q   All right.  And you were aware of the statement that
        8       justices of the peace are judicial officers, page 14?
        9   A   That's page 14?
       10   Q   Yes.
       11   A   Yes.
       12   Q   Okay.
       13   MS. ENNS:               Perhaps Mr. Hunter could clarify.
       14       I think "are also judicial officers" is the accurate
       15       statement.
       16   A   Yes.
       17   MR. HUNTER:             Yes, well, of course.  As I am
       18       sure there are other judicial officers besides the
       19       Applicants.
       20   MS. ENNS:               Well, perhaps they are also
       21       administrative officers.
       22   MR. HUNTER:             Well, that's another case, not
       23       this one.
       24   Q   Now, you've expressed an opinion here, some might call
       25       it a legal opinion, that since 1991, justices of the
       26       peace enjoyed, quote, "limited security of tenure,"
       27       and that proceeds upon, some might say, a legal
0091
        1       interpretation of the effect of taking the words "at
        2       pleasure" out of the 1908 statute and based upon what
        3       the Interpretation Act says.
        4   A   In part.
        5   Q   Well, let's just deal with that part.  You say from
        6       your point of view that no meaning whatsoever should
        7       be attributed to the removal of those words from the
        8       1908 statute.
        9   A   Correct.
       10   Q   You would agree that others might have a different
       11       opinion?
       12   A   Certainly.
       13   Q   And with respect to the matter of security of tenure
       14       and in doing your work, you were aware that if indeed
       15       there was any basis to invoke the Justice of the Peace
       16       Review Council with respect to these applicants, that
       17       could have been undertaken to remove them?
       18   A   You'll have to -- you'll have to ask me that one
       19       again, I'm sorry.
       20   Q   I will.  I won't, but the court reporter will.
       21   THE COURT REPORTER: (by reading)
       22
       23          "Q  And with respect to the matter of security of
       24          tenure and in doing your work, you were aware
       25          that if indeed there was any basis to invoke the
       26          Justice of the Peace Review Council with respect
       27          to these applicants, that could have been
0092
        1          undertaken to remove them?"
        2
        3   A   So the question is that was I aware of whether or not
        4       there were any proceedings of the Justice of the Peace
        5       Review Council involving these Applicants?
        6   Q   MR. HUNTER:         Let me try it -- the question
        7       probably got too much in it.  But when you were doing
        8       your work --
        9   A   Yes.
       10   Q   -- you knew that there was one way of removing the
       11       Applicants.
       12   A   That's correct.
       13   Q   And that was a Judicial Council.
       14   A   Yes.
       15   Q   And you knew it hadn't been undertaken?
       16   A   I knew that.
       17   Q   Or even considered.
       18   A   Yes.  Well, I don't know about considered.  I mean I
       19       would have no knowledge of that.
       20   Q   Right.
       21   THE COURT:              Mr. Hunter --
       22   MR. HUNTER:             I think I'm about done.
       23   THE COURT:              Okay, because I'm content to
       24       adjourn until two and come back for a bit.  I think
       25       I've plateaued.  I think I can hang on.
       26   MR. HUNTER:             Well, My Lord, if I can just have
       27       two minutes --
0093
        1   THE COURT:              Okay.
        2   MR. HUNTER:             I think I may not have to have you
        3       do that.
        4   THE COURT:              All right.
        5   Q   MR. HUNTER:         There's always one more question,
        6       and this is it:  Your paper on -- which is Exhibit 3,
        7       deals with sitting JPs.
        8   A   That's correct.
        9   Q   And you can confirm to this court that a sitting JP,
       10       to your understanding of the matter, does not exercise
       11       the following criminal jurisdiction functions:  the
       12       conduct of judicial interim release, bail hearings,
       13       the confirmation or cancellation of police process,
       14       and the issuance of search warrants and arrest
       15       warrants, correct?
       16   A   Correct.
       17   Q   Thank you.  Thank you very much, Doctor.
       18   MR. HUNTER:             That completes my
       19       cross-examination, My Lord.
       20   THE COURT:              Thank you, Mr. Hunter.
       21            Mr. Maybank, anything arising?
       22   MR. MAYBANK:            Nothing arising, sir.
       23   THE COURT:              Might the witness be excused?
       24   MR. HUNTER:             Indeed.
       25   THE COURT:              Thank you, Dr. Macleod, for your
       26       assistance.
       27   (WITNESS STANDS DOWN)
0094
        1   MR. HUNTER:             My Lord, what's your wish with
        2       regard to continuance?
        3   THE COURT:              What's the best estimate for
        4       Professor Green?
        5   MR. MAYBANK:            Sir, I would think I would be at
        6       least as long with Professor Green as Professor
        7       Macleod in examination-in-chief.
        8   THE COURT:              Well, I think we will try to
        9       soldier on.
       10   MR. HUNTER:             All right, sir.
       11   THE COURT:              There's nothing that two or three
       12       Tylenol can't fix.
       13   MR. HUNTER:             Well, it's what they may create
       14       rather than cure.
       15   THE COURT:              If I nod off, you'll notice.  So
       16       we will adjourn until two o'clock.  I am concerned
       17       that we don't have time to finish on Friday, and I --
       18       it's important, given the time frame we're working
       19       with, to try and finish on Friday, so we'll adjourn
       20       until two o'clock.
       21   MR. HUNTER:             Thank you.
       22   MR. MAYBANK:            Is there any opportunity, sir, for
       23       inquiring into any further time if it did become
       24       necessary?
       25   THE COURT:              Yes.  It would mean bumping some
       26       other matters, but once a matter starts, we stay with
       27       it until it is finished.
0095
        1   MR. MAYBANK:            All right.
        2   THE COURT:              That's not to give you an
        3       open-ended opportunity.
        4   MR. MAYBANK:            I do have an appointment with the
        5       Supreme Court of Canada next week, on the Wednesday.
        6   THE COURT:              Those are fairly compelling.  All
        7       right, two o'clock.
        8   --------------------------------------------------------
        9   PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 2:00 P.M.
       10   --------------------------------------------------------
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